
რამაზ საყვარელიძე: „ქართულ ოცნებას“ არ მიაჩნდა „ნაციონალური მოძრაობა“ მიუღებელ ოპოზიციად. . .
saerTaSoriso politikaze, trampis, putinis da zelenskis urTierTzemoqmedebasa da saqarTveloSi adgilobrivi TviTmmarTvelobis arCevnebze saubrobs „aWarasTan“ eqskluziur interviuSi politologi ramaz sayvareliZe.
– ukrainis prezidentis gancxadebas imasTan dakavSirebiT, rom `ukraina 9 maiss moskovSi sxva qveynebis warmomadgenlebis usafrTxoebas ver uzrunvelyofs~, moskovis gaRizianeba mohyva. ra gamodis, zelenski daemuqra putins da mis stumrebs, Tu marTla gabedavs Tavdasxmas?
– ra Tqma unda. . . muqaris meti romc araferi gaakeTos, ukve Tqva saTqmeli. saerTaSoriso urTierTobebisTvis ucxoa, rodesac Tavs esxmian ara samxedro metoqes, aramed sxva qveynidan Casul mis stumrebs, romlebic, magaliTad, ukrainasTan ar awarmoeben oms. es, daaxloebiT, utoldeba mSvidobian mosaxleobaze Setevas. germaniamac ki ver gabeda sabWoTa kavSirze Tavdasxma aRlumis dros, Tumca molodini aSkarad iyo. aseTi mcdeloba arc yofila samxedro istoriaSi, magram vfiqrob, yvelaferi SesaZlebelia, radgan saerTaSoriso normebs aRaravin icavs. zelenskim rom verc gabedos moskovze Tavdasxma 9 maiss, es gancxadeba mianiSnebs potenciur stumrebs, uari Tqvan miwvevaze. Tuki zogierTi mainc yurad iRebs am gafrTxilebas, esec ki zelenskisTvis dadebiTi Sedegi iqneba.
– rac Seexeba trampis da putinis urTierTobebs, TiTqos gacivda, aRar axsenebs masTan satelefono saubrebs da ufro metad zelenskis mxares iWers.
– analitikosebs miaCniaT, rom trampma rusuli politika gaatara. versia, TiTqos amerika ruseTs uwyobs xels, Tavad zelenskim ukarnaxa sazogadoebriobas. me maSinac vvaraudobdi, rom ase martivad ar aris saqme – vis vin uyvars da vis vin esimpaTiureba, ar TamaSobs araviTar rols, rodesac saqme ufro did mizans emsaxureba. trampi rom iRvwis omis SewyvetisTvis, es xom faqtia? kacTmoyvareobis garda, amas sxva mizezic aqvs: oms awarmoeben is jgufebi, romlebic tramps upirispirdebian. aq vgulisxmob amerikaSi, baidenis xaziT moqmed gaerTianebebsac, romlebic iaraRiT da a.S. uzrunvelyofen fronts. cxadia, evropelebic igives akeTeben, radgan swored briuselia dRes liberalizmis centri. am omSi mxolod danakargebi ar aris, mas wminda finansuri mogebac moaqvs rogorc ruseTSi, ise ukrainaSi da im qveynebSic, raRac formiT mainc rom aris Careuli. trampis amocanaa, liberalebs gadauketos omis finansuri ukugeba. mas igive mizani amoZravebda liberalebis damxmare struqturis -is gauqmebis drosac. im periodSi acxadebda trampi, omi unda dasruldeso. aqedan gamomdinare, vfiqrob, rom es erTi da igive motivis gamoZaxilia. mxolod finansuri wyaros gadaketviT miaRwevs trampi liberalebis dasustebas, isini veRar SeZleben saerTaSoriso politikis warmoebas da daTmoben msoflio batonobis poziciebs. liberalebis finansuri struqturebi emsaxureba konservatorebTan brZolas, maT Soris, saqarTveloSic. dRemde gaicema Tanxebi saprotesto aqciebze da ratom, demokratia awuxebT? gulubryviloebi nu viqnebiT. gamodis, 9 weliwadi, saakaSvilis reJimis dros ar awuxebdaT es fenomeni da axla Sewuxdnen? Tan ise `Sewuxdnen~, rom iTxoven saakaSvilis xelisuflebaSi dabrunebas?!
– adre arc ivaniSvili awuxebdaT da axla ratom gaamZafres zewola?
– savaraudod, dapirispireba daiwyo, rodesac `qarTuli ocneba~ msoflioSi moqmed konservatorebis moZraobas SeuerTda. evropel liberalebs surT konservatorebis momxre qveyanaSi Secvalon xelisufleba. igive suraTia ungreTSic. xom xedavT, rumineTSi konservatorebis mosvla rom ar dauSves.
– am SemTxvevaSi, saqarTvelo amerikis axali administraciis momxre gamodis… `qarTul ocnebas~ eqneba raime saxis daxmareba?
– ara mgonia, rom daxmarebebze wamovides amerika, radgan mas jer sakuTari fronti aqvs mosagebi. srul gamarjvebamde tramps Sori gza aqvs, imitom rom jer iq moqmedi liberalebi unda Seasustos, Torem Sualedur, Semdeg ki ZiriTad arCevnebze amotivtivdebian… xom arsad midis, ar ixoceba es xalxi? ase rom, raRac unda mouxerxos… demokratebi ki ar epuebian tramps, agrZeleben muSaobas, Tanac Zalian energiulad da intensiurad. analogiuri brZolebi tramps evropaSic elis. mas imedi hqonda, rom evropaSi gaimarjvebda antiliberaluri Zalebi, magram vnaxeT, rom germaniis konservatorebis partia, lamis akrZalvis piras aris. rubios ukve hqonda amaze reaqcia, Tqva, rom evropa ar iqceva demokratiulad.
– `qarTuli ocnebis~ xelisuflebis warmomadgenlebi ramdenime dRea Tavs iwoneben vice-premier levan daviTaSvilis xelmZRvanelobiT saqarTvelos samTavrobo delegaciis amerikaSi vizitiT. es Sexvedrebi Tu CaiTvleba qveynis ekonomikisTvis win gadadgmul nabijad?
– namdvilad aqvT Tavis mowonebis ufleba, radgan aseTi Sexvedrebi gulisxmobs sakuTar politikur uwyebasTan SeTanxmebas ama Tu im qveynis delegaciebis mosawvevad. gamodis, saqarTvelos vice-premierTan Sexvedras win uZRoda aSS-is saxelmwifo struqturis mier gacemuli oficialuri nebarTva. ase rom, es viziti SeiZleba CaiTvalos dasavleTis karebis gaxsnis erT-erT fragmentad.
– demokratia warmoudgenelia Tavisufali mediis gareSe. ra komentars gaakeTebdiT saxelmwifos mier `mTavari arxis~ daxurvasTan dakavSirebiT?
– es arxi kerZo struqturaa da daxura misma xelmZRvanelobam. arsad Cans, rom urevia saxelmwifos xeli. xelisuflebas raime norma rom SemoeRo, romelic gaurTulebda maT saqmes, sxva aris. Tan Tavisufali media dafinansebul medias xom ar niSnavs? xelisuflebis media ar migvaCnia Tavisuflad, radgan vTvliT, rom is biujetis kmayofazea, magram politikuri partiebi Tu afinanseben televizias, is televizia Tavisufalia? ra Tqma unda – ara.
– ra motiviT daxuravda arxs Tavad misi xelmZRvaneloba?
– am bolos, opoziciuri televizia ufro meti iyo saqarTveloSi, vidre mTavrobis politikis gamtarebeli. Tan isic gaiTvaliswineT, rom am xnis ganmavlobaSi, am arxebs saxelmwifos mxridan problema ar Seqmnia. modiT, gaviazroT Tavad `mTavaris~ xelmZRvanelobis pozicia, isic xom kerZo biznesis mflobelia, 12 welia afinansebs me da Tqven rom viyoT am arxis mflobelebi, xom gagviCndeba azri, Tu am wlebis manZilze televiziam veraviTari politikuri Sedegi ver gamoiRo, iqneb ar Rirs misi dafinanseba?
– anu Tqven TvliT, rom `mTavaris~ daxurvaSi `qarTul ocnebas~ monawileoba ar miuRia?
– ara, me vTvli, rom `qarTul ocnebas~ ar sWirdeboda am arxis daxurva. Cven kargad gvaxsovs `rusTavi 2~-is meSveobiT marTuli protesti. maSin mxolod is iyo opoziciuri arxi, romelsac mTeli saqarTvelo uyurebda da kidec Seasrula udidesi roli im protestis momwifebaSi, romelmac `vardebis revolucia~ Sva. 12 welia am opoziciur arxebs, maT Soris, `mTavars~, uyurebs qarTuli sazogadoeba. ra etyoba axla saprotesto talRas saimiso, rom xelisuflebas Secvlis? e.i. amJamindeli xelisuflebisTvis es televizia saxifaTo ar iyo, SevardnaZis xelisuflebisgan gansxvavebiT, romelic swored `rusTavi 2~-is meSveobiT gadaayenes. amis miuxedavad, jer kidev maSin, SevardnaZemac ver gabeda misTvis xeli exlo, radgan mTeli msoflio uyurebda. analogiurad, axlac mTeli msoflio giyurebs, rame rom gaakeTo, xom iyvireben, rom Tavisufal medias xurav. . . mediis daxurvis cocxali faqti gvqonda saakaSvilis dros, `imedSi~ rom Sevardnen misi zonder-brigadebi. imdenad mkafio iyo am movlenis demokratiasTan Seusabamoba, rom Tavad saakaSvili gadadga prezidentobidan, Tumca, Semdeg yvelaferi gaakeTa, xelaxal arCevnebSi isev rom moego. man es gadadgoma gaiTamaSa dasavleTTan qulebis dasawerad, radgan ver moigebda maT TvalSi is xelisufleba, romelic daxuravda televizias.
– rac Seexeba „nacionaluri moZraobis“ akrZalvas, gadaido imis gamo, rom sakonstitucio sasamarTlo vadebSi ver jdeba Tu imitom, rom xelisuflebam dasavleTs kidev erTi sababi ar misca?
– sakonstitucios garda, cxadia, aq roli iTamaSa dasavleTis poziciamac. axla vlaparakobdiT mediis daxurvis mkacr Sedegebze. amaze ufro rTuli procesia partiis gauqmeba. ramdenimejer gaiJRera evropis politikur wreebSi, rom saqarTveloSi opoziciur partiebs devnian. vfiqrob, `nacionaluri moZraobis~ gauqmebis gadadebaSi garkveuli roli iTamaSa evropuli Sefasebis molodinebmac.
albaT, xelisuflebam gadawyvita, ar iCqaros, daagrovos saparlamento sagamoZiebo komisiaze miRebuli masalebi. erTi mxriv, am masalebis mowesrigeba dros iTxovs da meore mxriv, ucxoel oponentebs surT aCvenon, ra reitingis partiasTan aqvT saqme. kidev erT arguments mogiyvanT am sakiTxze. kerZod, ismis kiTxva, aris Tu ara dRes opozicia ise Zlieri, rom misma devnam gadaarCinos `qarTuli ocneba~, Tu am devnas politikuri ki ara sufTa wylis iuridiuli datvirTva gaaCnia? dRes realurad germaniis mTavroba devnis sakuTar opozicias imitom, rom gamarjvebul partiaze meti reitingi aqvs. aseT devnaSi aSkarad ikiTxeba politikuri Sinaarsi, radgan kargad Cans, rom Tu akrZalaven konkretul partias, maSin mmarTveli Zala uzrunvelyofili iqneba ZalauflebiT. `nacionaluri moZraobis~ birTvze aRmocenebuli es partiebi ki kidec rom aikrZalos, amiT `qarTul ocnebas~ arc moemateba da arc daakldeba rame. gaxsovT, sul iyo laparaki, rom ivaniSvili inaxavs `erTian nacionalur moZraobas~, radgan mis fonze ukeTesad Cans da meti amomrCeveli hyavso. aqedan gamomdinare vaskvni – `qarTul ocnebas~ ar miaCnda `nacionaluri moZraoba~ miuRebel opoziciad, piriqiT, mis likvidaciaze metad, awyobda igi politikaSi yofiliyo.
– axla ra moxda, ratom gaaxsenda `qarTul ocnebas~, rom `erTiani nacionaluri moZraoba~ asakrZalia?
– bolo xanebSi am jgufma daiwyo ucxoelebTan urTierToba da maTi waqezeba saqarTveloze SetevisTvis. yvela „is“ rezolucia, xom amaTi dawerili teqstiTaa Sedgenili. Seikra kavSiri am xelisuflebis evropel oponentebsa da adgilobriv opozicias Soris. es ukve mniSvnelovania da pirdapir urtyams saxelmwifo interesebs. Tuki damtkicdeba am xalxis mier wlebis ganmavlobaSi Cadenili kriminaluri faqtebi, ase iolad veRar daajereben sakuTar `simarTleSi~ ucxoeTis struqturebs. aqedan gamomdinare, mTavroba cdilobs Tavisi kuTvnili adgili miuCinos dausjelobiT gaTamamebul personebs. an is rad Rirs, sul ucxoeTSi rom darbian… adgilobriv amomrCevlebTan ukve aRarc midian, saarCevno kampania arc uwarmoebiaT, radgan iqaurebis imedi aqvT… aqauri eleqtorati maTi partniori ver gaxda, evropeli liberalebi daiyenes gverdiT, romlebic ebrZvian qarTul saxelmwifos, rogorc konservatiuli Zalis balavars.
– batono ramaz, rogor fiqrobT, miiReben arCevnebSi monawileobas opoziciuri partiebi?. . aqamde uaryofdnen, Tumca axla Tavs ikaveben komentarebisgan.
– albaT, miiReben. . . principSi, sxva qveynebSi partiebs imitom krZalaven, arCevnebSi rom ar miRon monawileoba. aq ki, Tavad ar surT es. mokled, sruli gaugebrobaa. . . es ar aris SemTxveviTi, evropis liberalebs awyobT, ar Sewydes saqarTveloSi saprotesto aqciebi. meore mxriv, viRacebi xom afinanseben am partiebs da Tu ar miiReben arCevnebSi monawileobas, gamodis, tyuilad yrian fuls. televizia risTvis ginda? rom Seni pozicia gaacno xalxs, romelic Semdeg Tavis arCevans gaakeTebs saarCevno ubnebSi, am dros ki opozicia saxlSi zis. . . didi Sansia, rom qarTuli opoziciis mTliani sistema am dilemis winaSe aRmoCndes – partiebis wevrebi, maTi damfinanseblebi, maTi xelSemwyobebi da a.S. . . jer kidev aqvT poziciis Secvlis dro, magram Tuki igives gaagrZeleben, maSin maTi daxmareba da maTze apelireba azrs dakargavs. amitom mgonia, rom raRac etapze, es xazi: `aralegitimuri mTavroba, aralegitimuri arCevnebi~, nel-nela Caqreba da opozicia Sedgeba Cveul relsebze, romliTac moZraobs nebismieri qveynis nebismieri opoziciuri partia, anu miiRebs monawileobas rigiT arCevnebSi da miRebuli xmebiT imuSavebs sakrebuloebSi. aqve aRvniSnav, rom adgilobriv arCevnebs gansakuTrebuli roli aqvs, radgan es aris berketi, gamorCeuli deputatebis Semdgom saparlamento arCevnebSi gasayvanad. imedi viqonioT, rom Cveni opoziciac gons moegeba da imuSavebs qveynis, xalxis sakeTildReod.
irma cecxlaZe