რამაზ საყვარელიძე: უნდა ჩამოყალიბდეს საპარლამენტო მუშაობისთვის მომწიფებულ პოლიტიკოსთა ახალი თაობა…

irma cecxlaZe –

politologi ramaz sayvareliZe sagareo politikasa da saSinao problemebze saubrobs. Tvlis, rom qveyanaSi arsebuli siZulvilis muxti male Caqreba, dasavleTi mosTxovs quCaSi gasul opozicias parlamentSi Sesvlas da amomrCevlis mier miniWebuli ndobis mandatis gamarTlebas.

– batono ramaz, Tu SeiZleba 2025 wlis sagareo politikis savaraudo perspeqtivebiT daviwyoT saubari?

– ra Tqma unda, dRes es Tema yvelas gvaRelvebs. amerikis sagareo politika ise Seicvala trampis saTaveSi mosvlis Semdeg, rom araTu saqarTvelo, aramed mTeli msoflio sagonebelSia Cavardnili. aravin icis, rodis ras ganacxadebs aSS-is prezidenti da misi marjvena xeli maski. erT rameSi var darwmunebuli mxolod, cxadia, rom amerikis politikis SecvliT, Seicvleba evropelebis kavkasiuri politikac, romelTa interesi sando satranzito gzaa. orbanTan trampis siaxlove savaraudos xdis, rom mas konservatizmis dacva aqvs ganzraxuli, rac Cvens dacvasac gulisxmobs. aqve ar dagvaviwydes, rom ukve 2025 wels saqarTvelo kerketi kakali gaxda saerTaSoriso urTierTobebisTvis. man gauZlo uprecedento wnexs msoflios udidesi qveynebisgan… meore mxriv, Tu trampma CineTTan orTabrZola gaagrZela, Cven gaviWylitebiT, magram Tu saqarTvelo SeZlebs, mxareebs daexmaros balansis moZebnaSi, magaliTad, Cinuri tvirTi+amerikuli kontroli, SeiZleba momgebian pozciaSic ki aRmovCndeT. kerZod, dasavleTma yuraReba mogvaqcia `baqo-Tbilisi-jeihanis~ derefnis Seqmnis Semdeg. derefani `CineTi-kavkasia-evropa~ kidev ufro guliTads gaxdis evropis da saqarTvelos urTierTobas.
– jerjerobiT ar Cans maTi guliTadoba…
– axla evrokavSirSi qaosia, ar ician, ra eliT, radgan trampma ar damala sakuTari damokidebuleba am organizaciis mimarT. aqedan gamomdinare, Sig darCenili e.w. demokratebi aswreben sadRac aRebuli valebis Camoweras, maT Soris, saqarTvelos opoziciur Zalebs dapirebuli arCevnebis arcnobis meqanizmis CarTvas. rogorc ki Seicvleba evropis qveynebSi mTavrobebi, maSinve Cadgeba Cveni urTierToba Cveul ritmSi da aravin gagvamtyunebs, rom gvinda mSvidoba da aRmSenebloba.
– gulisxmobT CineTis Semosvlas?
– ratomac ara, Tu CineTma aq fexi moikida, mas dasWirdeba konfliqtebisgan daculi gza. am saWiroebam SeiZleba ruseT-CineTis molaparakebebi moiTxovos da Cveni problemebis gadaWras Seuwyos xeli. rac Seexeba ybadaRebul swrafvas ruseTisken, verc adre vxedavdi amis damadasturebel faqtebs da arc momavalSi vvaraudob, Tu ra motiviT SeiZleba gaxdes ruseTi saintereso saqarTvelosTvis.
– rac Seexeba Sida daZabulobas?
– imedi maqvs, rom Cacxreba siZulvilis muxti opoziciur amomrCevelSi da maT gaaxsendebaT, rom opoziciuri partiebi airCies imisTvis, rom isini Sevidnen parlamentSi da sadeputato uflebebiT SeiaraRebulebi daupirispirdnen mmarTvel partias. yvela civilizebul qveyanaSi politikuri dapirispireba parlamentSia gadatanili. politikisTvis quCas iyeneben, ZiriTadad, bananis respublikebSi. evropisken mimavali qveynisTvis ki bananis respublikis wesebiT cxovreba ar gamodgeba. dasavleTis zemoT naxsenebi tendenciebis moxsnis Semdeg, dasavleTic parlamentSi muSaobas mosTxovs opozicias, rogorc iyo 2020-Si. am xanSi is axalgazrduli jgufebic daRvindebian, romlebic axla quCaSi igeben politikis gemos. maTgan unda Camoyalibdes saparlamento muSaobisTvis momwifebul politikosTa axali Taoba.
– Tu SeiZleba, gavaanalizoT, saidan daviwyeT da rogor movediT im problemebamde, rac dResdReobiT angrevs Cvens sazogadoebas?
– vTvli, rom dRevandeli dRisTvis mniSvnelovani sagareo movlenebi saTaves iRebs 2003 wlidan, roca „vardebis revoluciiT“ amerikam da ruseTma saqarTvelos sakiTxSi daiwyes TanamSromloba, magram axla es araa mniSvnelovani. politolog j.Sarpis receptebiT Seicvala xelisufleba saqarTveloSi. Semdeg amerikam saakaSvils uwoda `demokratiis Suqura~ da akrZala misi mxardaWerili `Suquras~ kritika rogorc amerikaSi, ise evropaSi. ese igi, Cvenive gamocdilebidan gamomdinareobs, rom amerikas SeuZlia xelisuflebis Secvla, Tu dasWirda, razec ase xSirad msjeloben Tavad amerikeli analitikosebi. . . sainteresoa, rom interviu, sadac jefri saqss aqvs gamoTqmuli azri `dif sTeiTis~ amgvar operaciebze da sadac saqarTvelos dRevandeli mdgomareobac aris aRwerili, trampis TanamebrZolma ilon maskma Tavis gverdze socialurqselze ganaTavsa, riTac Tavis mxriv daadastura, rom xelisuflebaTa Secvlis praqtika amerikas axasiaTebs.
– romeli mniSvnelovani politikuri faqtebi dafiqsirda im periodSi?
– mniSvnelovani politikuri faqti bevri iyo, magram yuradRebas gavamaxvileb 2020 wlis noemberze, roca Tbiliss estumra maikl pompeo. wasvlisas man sajarod gagvafrTxila, rom anakliaSi ar SemogveSva CineTi, arademokratiuli qveyana ariso. 2021 wlis dekemberSi, viTom pompeo arc arsebuliyo, saqarTvelom CineTidan miiRo pirveli regularuli satvirTo matarebeli. 2023 wels, zafxulis msoflio sauniversiteto TamaSebis gaxsnis ceremoniaSi monawileobisTvis, saqarTvelos premieri ewvia CineTs da yvelasTvis moulodnelad. strategiuli partniorobis xelSekruleba gaaforma. amasTanave, gaxSirda laparaki imaze, rom CineTi evropaSi wasaRebi tvirTebis nawils gaitanda azerbaijan-saqarTveloze gavliT. CineTis aseTi SemoWra kavkasiaSi da moaxloeba Sav zRvasTan miuRebeli unda yofiliyo amerikisTvis, romelsac ar endomeboda CineTis ekonomikis xelSewyoba.
– … ruseTisTvis?
– arc ruseTisTvis, romelsac cimbiris mware gamocdilebiT, ar endomeboda CineTis moZraoba Crdilokavkasiis qveS. amerika da ruseTi CineTs verafers uzamdnen da Cinuri proeqtis CaSlis martivi gza iqneboda azerbaijanis da saqarTvelos areva, qaoss komercia ar ekareba. Cven ki CineTi, albaT, imitom aviCemeT da gauxmaureblad gavabiT masTan kavSirebi, rom misi proeqti ekonomikurad da politikuradac momgebiani iyo – ruseTi yvelas eyoyloCineba CineTis garda. ruseTisgan dacvisTvis CineTi, Tu man moindoma, ufro gamogvadgeba, vidre mTeli aRSfoTebuli msoflio… erTi wliT adre dawyebuli ruseT-ukrainis omis fonze, gaJRerda mosazreba, rom saqarTvelos sTavazobdnen meore frontis gaxsnas, magaliTad, aleqsei danilovi. ruseTis dasustebis miznidan gamomdinare, gasakviri ar aris, rom ukrainas sdomeboda meore frontis gaxsna da arc is, rom ukrainis partnior amerikas sdomeboda igive. maSin, zedapiruli analiziTac ki gamogvdis, rom sam weliwadSi sammilionianma saqarTvelom samjer gauwia winaaRmdegoba msoflios uZlieres, 327-milionian qveyanas. aseTi daumorCilebloba nebismier saxelmwifos gaaRizianebda, miT ufro – amerikas, romelic morCilebas iTxovs yvelasgan, Zlieri evropeli partniorebisganac ki. savaraudod, amerikam ganizraxa patara saqarTveloSi urCi xelisuflebis magivrad morCili gundis moyvana.
– romel politikur gunds gulisxmobdnen?
– Tu gavixsenebT, rom amerikis politikis spikerebi ambobdnen kidec, 2012 wlis Semdeg sul ufro daSorda dasavleTs saqarTveloo, gamodis, 2012 wlamde saqarTvelo axlos iyo evropasTan. 2012 wlamde iyo saakaSvilis xelisufleba, romelTan urTierTobaSic problema ar gasCenia amerikas, Tumca gauCnda saqarTvelos mosaxleobas. savaraudoa, rom saakaSvilis gundis dabruneba iyo dRis wesrigSi. aq erTi detalia dasazustebeli – am periodSi aSS-is saTaveSi iyvnen demokratebi, romlebTanac ufro meti saerTo aqvT napovni saakaSvilis mimdevrebs, ivaniSvilis mimdevrebi ki daaxlovdnen konservatiul ZalebTan. amdenad, saakaSvilis gundis mxardaWeras amerikis mxridan partiuli safuZvelic hqonda, amitom iyo Cveni opozicia orientirebuli trampis inauguraciis TariRze. Tu 2021-23 wlebSi dasavleTSi momwifda saqarTveloSi xelisuflebis Secvlis idea da Tu aman miaRwia am xelisuflebis yuramde, SeiZleba, muqaris saxiTac, maSin gasagebia, rom swored am periodidan daiwyo saqarTvelos xelisuflebam Ria gancxadebebis keTeba imaze, rom dasavleTs Cveni mTavrobis gadatrialeba unda. savaraudoa, rom xelisuflebas surda xmamaRali gancxadebebiT xeli SeeSala `vardebis revolucia 2~-isTvis, radgan revolucia safrTxes uqmnis bevr rames – mSvidobas, stabilurobas, saqarTvelos saerTaSoriso funqcias, bevri adamianis ara marto socialur statuss, aramed sicocxlesac.
– yvelaferi mainc e.w. rusuli kanonis miRebiT daiwyo. . .
– esec xafangi iyo. . . gavixsenoT movlenaTa qronologia, imisTvis, rom xalxi xelisuflebis SecvlisTvis ganewyo, dasavleTma gaaJRera uvizo reJimis gauqmebis muqara da 100-mde dausaxelebeli piris sanqcireba (maTgan mxolod ramdenimea cnobili). xelisuflebam am cecxls navTi daasxa `rusuli kanonis~ SemotaniT. dasavleTma kategoriulad dagmo saqarTveloSi im kanonis miReba, rasac iRebdnen evropis qveynebi. es usamarTloba iyo da saqarTvelos mosaxleobis mniSvnelovan nawils gaeRviZa erovnuli Tavmoyvareobis grZnoba. `rusuli kanoniT~ provocirebulma am grZnobam didi gavlena iqonia arCevnebze. saparlamento arCevnebSi mosaxleobis naxevarze metma xma misca dasavleTisgan Serisxul xelisuflebas, radgan Seuracxyofad miiCnia xelisuflis Tavs moxveva xalxisTvis. raki xelisuflebis Secvla arCevnebis gziT ver moxerxda, amoqmedda scenari, rom gayalbda arCevnebi, rasac revolucia unda mohyoloda.
– bolos da bolos, arCevnebi gayalbda Tu ara?
– principSi, gayalbebis konkretuli faqtebi ar gavrcelebula da arc darRvevebis raodenobaa cnobili. ubralod, daiwyo saprotesto aqciebi, sadac iTxovdnen, rom daniSnuliyo axali arCevnebi. garda imisa, rom am moTxovnis safuZveli ar Cans, bevri ram mainc daumuSavebelia. magaliTad, axlac araa dadgenili arCevnebis ra pirobebi miaCniaT samarTlianad gamprotesteblebs da ras gegmaven „ocnebis“ xelaxali gamarjvebis SemTxvevaSi. mokled rom vTqvaT, aravin araferi daazusta, Tumca axlac grZeldeba protesti, romlis politikuri Sinaarsi isev dakonkretebas iTxovs. interviuSi warsuls bevri adgili davuTme imitom, rom is dagvexmaros awmyos gagebaSi. saqarTveloSi dResac didia siZulvilis muxti, rac albaT, isev vinmes awyobs da gvelodeba xafangi. xafangisgan Tavis daRwevis piroba aris realuri mizezebis danaxva. zogjer dRevandeli aqciebis mizezad saxeldeba is, rom 26 oqtombris Sedegebs saqarTveloSi mosaxleobis raRac nawili ar daeTanxma da amitom saprotesto aqciebs marTavs. mizezad moaqvT kobaxiZis gancxadebac evropisken iniciativebis SeCerebaze. bolomde damajerebeli araa es versiebi. adrec ar eTanxmebodnen arCevnebis Sedegebs, magaliTad – 2020-Si. iyo saprotesto aqciebi, Tumca ar iyo aseTi daundobeli dapirispireba piroteqnikiT da molotovis koqteilebiT erTi mxridan da meore mxridan – cemiT da dapatimrebebiT. sxvaTa Soris, am dReebSi piroteqnikiani dapirispireba policiasTan da aseulobiT adamianis dapatimreba moxda germaniasa da safrangeTSi, Tumca arCevnebis Sedegebis gaprotesteba ar iyo mizezi. SeiZleba protestis scenari iyos saerTo da ara – protestis mizezi. 2020 welTan SedarebiT, Seicvala saqarTvelos prezidentis da evropis qcevac. maSin isini mxareTa Serigebas cdilobdnen, axla – aRviveben konfliqts. irakli kobaxiZis zepir gancxadebas amxela protesti ar unda mosdevdes, is gancxadeba xom realurad arafers cvlida da xanmokle protestic sakmarisi iqneboda signalis funqciiT, anu am mizezze ufro Zlieri iyo reaqcia, vidre unda yofiliyo.
– TiTqos isev 90-ianebSi aRmovCndiT. . .
– geTanxmebiT, bevri saerTo aqvs dRevandelobas 90-ianebTan da swored amitom ar mimaCnia, rom es Sida procesebi mxolod Sidaa. maSin ruseTi aqezebda saqarTvelos erT nawils meoresTan saCxubrad TbilisSi, afxazeTsa Tu cxinvalis regionSi. garedan waqezebulma am agresiam da waqezebulTa daufiqreblobam mogvitana samoqalaqo omebi, sadac, erTi SexedviT, saqarTvelos moqalaqeebi ebrZodnen erTmaneTs, magram realurad – ruseTi ebrZoda saqarTvelos, rac Riad gamoCnda mxolod 2008 wels. . . ruseTi ruseTad, magram Cvens bralzec davfiqrdeT. SimSiliT an SiSiT Sewuxebuli cocxali arseba ufro swrafad da daufiqreblad xteba xafangSi. amitomaa, rom masze monadirec msxverplis winaSe sasiamovno-usiamovnos alternativas ayenebs da amaSia xafangis arsi. ese igi, emociurobis fonze ufro meti Sansia xafangSi moxvedris. amitom vTvli, rom 90-ianebSic da axlac, Cveni brali is aris, rom zedmeti emociebis gamo advilad vxvdebiT xafangSi.