„კომპრომისის გარეშე სიმშვიდეს ვერ მივაღწევთ“

`mzia gisosebs miRma gacilebiT saSiSia xelisuflebisTvis~

irma cecxlaZe 577 20 45 63 –

baTumSi gamarTul aqciebs momitingeTa dakaveba mohyva, rasac usamarTlobad miiCnevs rogorc opozicia, ise poziciis nawili. socialuri samarTlianobis centris iuristi guro imnaZe feisbuqze wers, rom baTumelebi/netgazeTis damfuZneblis da direqtoris mzia amaRlobelis saqmeSi aRkveTis RonisZiebis saxiT patimrobis gamoyenebas sadamsjelo xasiaTi aqvs, magram mTavari samarTlebrivi nonsensi braldebaa, radgan silis gawvnisTvis ar SeiZleba adamiani sisxlis samarTlis wesiT isjebodes: sisxlis samarTlis kodeqsSive gvaqvs specialuri muxli, romelic ambobs, rom Tundac formalurad arsebobdes danaSaulis niSnebi, Tuki qmedeba umniSvneloa, ar SeiZleba misi Cadenis gamo adamiani sisxlis samarTlis wesiT daisajos.

am sakiTxze da mimdinare politikur procesebze `aWarasTan~ saubrobs baTumis SoTa rusTavelis saxelobis universitetis filosofiis departamentis xelmZRvaneli, asocirebuli profesori, filosofosi da politikosi giorgi masalkini. gTavazobT masTan intervius.

– bolo dros baTumi kvlav politikuri movlenebis epicentrSi aRmoCnda. riT axsniT am gaaqtiurebas?

– baTumi yovelTvis iyo politikurad gamorCeuli meore qalaqi saqarTveloSi. baTumelebi yovelTvis aqtiurobdnen da sakuTar kvals avlebdnen saqarTvelos politikur cxovrebaSi. amitom araa gasakviri, rom baTumelebi aqtiurad gamoxataven sakuTar pozicias Catarebul arCevnebTan da mimdinare movlenebTan dakavSirebiT. rac Seexeba saprotesto aqciebis gaaqtiurebas, es procesi rom saTanadod avxsna da koreqtuli pasuxi gagceT, unda viyo am aqciebis erT-erTi organizatori. me SigadaSig vmonawileob SekrebebSi, ris gamoc ar vflob srulyofil informacias. vfiqrob, 20 ianvramde, trampis inauguraciamde es duRili SenarCundeba maRal temperaturaze. ras gadawyvets aSS-is axali administracia, jer aravin icis, magram opoziciisTvis sasicocxlod aucilebelia, aCvenos dasavleTs, rom mosaxleoba ukmayofiloa arsebuli mmarTvelobiT da unda dainiSnos riggareSe arCevnebi. SesaZloa, swored am duRilis SenarCunebis erT-erTi mcdeloba gaxldaT baTumSi viTarebis daZabva. arc ki maxsovs, es dapirispireba riT daiwyo, mgoni, stikerebis gakvriT, aqciis monawileTa dakavebiT, iqamde – xelovnebis universitetSi momxdari Sexla-SemoxliT… mokled, dagrovda yvelaferi erTad, ramac sabolood gamoiwvia maRali temperatura.

– batono gia, manamde inarCunebdiT neitralitets, cdilobdiT, ar CareuliyaviT saprotesto politikur procesebSi, axla SecvaleT pozicia. Tqveni gaaqtiureba ram gamoiwvia?

– SevamCnie, rom `kritikuli mediasaSualebebi~ maqsimalurad eridebian CemTan intervius. rodesac Camivlian, mzeras marideben, ician, rom SesaZloa iseTi ram vTqva, maT ar moewonoT, axla mxolod Sav-TeTr ferebSi aRiqvamen yvelafers. . . me maqvs Cemi pozicia. mimaCnia, rom arCevnebi ar gayalbebula, yovel SemTxvevaSi, ufro didi doziT, vidre yvela sxva danarCeni. maqvs kargi istoriuli maxsovroba, yovelTvis vimyofebodi arCevnebis epicentrSi da kargad vici, ra aris marTvadi arCevnebi. jer kidev aTi wlis win vwerdi erT-erT statiaSi, rom CvenTan arCevnebi ki ar yalbdeba – iyideba. axlac igive stilis arCevnebi Catarda, Sesabamisad, arc imas vTvli, rom es mTavroba ar aris legitimuri. aqedan gamomdinare, gamoTqmebi: e.w. mTavroba, e.w. policia… cota bavSvuria da Rimils iwvevs. . . Tan, Cveni geopolitikuri mdebareobis gaTvaliswinebiT, imis Zaxili, aralegitimuri xelisufleba gvyavso, cota sariskoa da kargis momtani ar aris. ai, es aris is gansxvavebuli pozicia, romelsac vinarCuneb, saprotesto aqciebSi ki vmonawileob, radgan veTanxmebi mTavarSi – Tu gavaerTianebT sagareo da Sidapolitikur mdgomareobas, politikuri krizisi saxezea.
– ra aris saWiro am krizisidan qveynis gamosayvanad?
– aq orad ori gamosavalia, erTi – represiebi, rac garkveulad imuSavebs, magram sabolood, saqarTveloSi ar gaamarTlebs. Cveni qveyana ar aris arc belarusi, arc ruseTi da miT umetes – Sua azia. . . aq absoluturad sxva mentalitetis xalxi cxovrobs. erTi SexedviT, SesaZloa, mogeCvenoT, rom saprotesto aqciebSi monawileobs xalxis umciresoba, romelic permanentulad cvlis erTmaneTs, magram am umciresobas spikeri gacilebiT meti erudirebuli, ganaTlebuli, inteleqtuali hyavs, romlebmac sazRvargareT moipoves upiratesoba da saqarTveloSic floben ideologiuri zegavlenis Zlier berketebs. da Tu ara represiebi, rCeba romeli gza? kompromisi, rasac veli orive mxridan. kompromisis gareSe simSvides ver mivaRwevT.
– mTavroba Tvlis, rom saqarTveloSi simSvidea.
– ara, ar aris simSvide, rodesac yvela dRe Tendeba im interesiT, ra moxda guSin, vin cemes, vin daiWires, ra skandali agorda… es ar aris eris jansaRi cxovrebis wesi. amitom veli (imis miuxedavad, rom idealisturad JRers Cemgan), rom orive mxare daTanxmdeba kompromisze, anu dainiSneba vadamdeli arCevnebi. marTalia, misi daniSvna/Catareba ver moxdeba uceb. es procesi moicavs samarTlebriv, ekonomikur, politikur sferoebs, magram patriarqis, ucxoeli partniorebis, mTeli politikuri speqtris CarTulobiT, orive mxare unda SeTanxmdes, radganac am arCevnebma bevri kiTxva datova. amis gamo, garkveulwilad, izolaciaSi aRmovCndiT sagareo arenaze. unda CavataroT iseTi arCevnebi, romelic saeWvos aRar gaxdis, mis saboloo Sedegs. SesaZloa, arCevnebi Catardes gazafxulze an Semodgomaze, magram mTavaria gadawyvetilebis miReba, rac SesaZlebels gaxdis raRac etapze, eris daSoSminebas da Tundac sagareo politikis (aRarafers vambob saSinao politikasa da ekonomikur problemebze) stabilizacias.
– ramdenad darwmunebuli xarT, rom vadamdeli arCevnebi ar moitans igive Sedegs da opozicia kvlav ar gaaCaRebs brZolas axlis dasaniSnad?
– amitom iseTi arCevnebi unda Catardes, romelic kiTxvis niSnebs gamoricxavs. . . sxvaTa Soris, SesaZloa, es Zalian didi xafangi aRmoCndes opoziciisTvis, radgan SesaZlebelia, am SemTxvevaSic `qarTulma ocnebam~ moigos. erTi mxriv, aris saxelisuflebo mdidari, monoliTuri partia, Tavisi Zalovani struqturebiT, Tavisi `tv imediT~, lozungebiT, romlebic kargad muSaobs da meore mxares dgas, rogorc axla xSirad moixsenieben, uniaTo da daqsaqsuli opozicia, romelic erTmaneTSi ver SeTanxmda verc arCevnebamde da verc mis Semdeg, lideris gareSe da isev saakaSvilis CrdilSi myofi. sxvaTa Soris, iq, sadac gamoCndebian politikosebi, maSinve mZafrdeba viTareba, rasac Sexla-Semoxla da dapatimrebebi mosdevs, maT Soris baTumSic.
– mzia amaRlobelis dapatimrebaze ras ityviT?
– zogadad, ar miyvars Jurnalistis uSualo CarTva politikur procesebSi. Tuki eswreba mitings an aqcias, unda gaaSuqos, policiis ufross saxeSi ki ar unda gaawnas sila. . . magram am faqts win uswrebda orsaaTiani dakaveba. ar viciT, iq ra xdeboda. . . amboben, rom iyo gineba, uSveri sityvebi, Sexla-Semoxla, tualetSi argaSveba da sxva. . . aqedan gamomdinare, dasaSvebia adamianuri faqtori – qali gamovides wyobidan. xma ar ismis kadrSi, ar viciT, ratom moqaCa, Semoabruna da sila gaawna. . . magram, bolos da bolos, es aris silis gawvna konkretul situaciaSi. iuristebi weren, rom Tavisuflad SeiZleboda sul sxva muxlis miyeneba da sxva konteqstSi ganxilva. Tanamedrove saqarTvelos istoriaSi gazeTma `baTumelebma~ da onlaingamocema `netgazeTma~ epoqa Seqmna, sruli am sityvis mniSvnelobiT. im SemTxvevaSi ki, Tu davuSvebT, rom am mediawyaroebis direqtori mzia amaRlobeli calsaxad damnaSavea da unda gasamarTldes, mainc ar mesmis, ratom iyo aucilebeli qalisTvis, dedisTvis, JurnalistisTvis orTviani winaswari patimrobis Sefardeba. . . mimalvis saSiSroeba? mowmeebze zemoqmedeba? visze, policielebze? axali danaSaulis Cadenis riski? safrTxes uqmnis sazogadoebas, meored Caidens danaSauls, anu kidev gaawnis silas policiels? kargi, ra. . .…

samwuxarod, dRes samyaro imarTeba piariT, es exeba rogorc aSS-s, ise ruseTs, evrokavSirs Tu afrikas. amerikelma kongresmenma arc ki icis Cveni specifika da urTierTobebi. mas awvdian informacias, rom qali, Jurnalisti, gazeTis damfuZnebeli, deda – daiWires stikeris gakvris da silis gawvnis gamo. . . `qarTuli ocneba~ eweva daSinebis, `nulovani tolerantobis~, `Wkuis swavlebis~ politikas. vfiqrob, es politika wamgebiania. mzia gisosebs miRma gacilebiT saSiSia xelisuflebisTvis, radgan axla mTeli msoflio masze laparakobs. . . simarTle giTxraT, xelisuflebis qcevis logikas ver vxvdebi. . .
– muhajirebis STamomavali Temur qaTamaZe, romelic ramdenime welia saqarTveloSi cxovrobs da bolo dros aqtiurad monawileobs saprotesto aqciebSi, samtrediis raionulma sasamarTlom 5–dRian patimrobaSi datova. . .
– piradad me, es pirovneba Zalian mesimpatiureba. didxans vesaubre. mas marTlac bevri aqvs gakeTebuli `gurjebisa~ da qarTvelebis daaxloebisTvis. aq gvarebi Camoiwera da TurqeTis soflebi moiara sanaTesaos gasarkvevad. wignebi dabeWda, TurqeTSi qarTulis swavlebas uwyobs xels. saqarTvelos didi patriotia. 15 welia, aqtiurad iRvwis TurqeTSi myofi qarTvelebis deda-samSoblosTan dasakavSireblad da 15 welia, cdilobs saqarTvelos moqalaqeoba miiRos. me da sxvebmac ufro axlos gavicaniT mitingebze, sadac dauRlelad idga qarTuli droSiT xelSi. rogorc vici, xelmeored daakaves saqarTveloSi yofnis vadebis darRvevis gamo da mas deporti emuqreba.
– gaxarias galaxvis faqtmac SeaSfoTa sazogadoeba. ras ityviT mis irgvliv mimdinare procesebze?
– mgoni, es lakmusis qaRaldi unda gaxdes sazogadoebisTvis, kerZod, vgulisxmob, rogor aSuqebs am faqts saxelisuflebo arxi. Tavdasxmis amsaxveli videos wina da bolo nawili moWrilia. ar Cans, riT daiwyo Selaparakeba, vin da ramdeni kaci urtyams, anu aqvT raRac dasamali. Cans mxolod, rom dgas subtiluri agebulebis gaxaria ramdenime Cafskvnili kacis winaSe, erT-erTs esvris Wiqas cxvir-pirSi da ucxadebs `jvarosnul oms~. . . politikuri simpaTia gaxarias mimarT arasdros mqonia, magram raRac ridi mis mimarT unda arsebobdes, Tavis droze qveynis Sss ministri da premieri iyo, amJamad sakmaod warmatebuli opoziciuri moZraobis lideria. . . sainteresoa, rogor warimarTeba sasamarTlo procesi, ukve aRar gamikvirdeba, rom gaasamarTlon Tavad gaxaria, romelmac gabeda da Wiqa esrola mmarTveli partiis warmomadgenels. . . silis gawvnisTvis xom daiWires mzia amaRlobeli(?) . .
– apirebT politikaSi dabrunebas?
– me politikaSi var da yovelTvis viyavi, ubralod, uari vTqvi politikuri partiis wevrobaze. 2016 wlidan, praqtikulad, arcerTi partiis wevri ar var, Tu ar CavTvliT „lelosTan“ orTvian TanamSromlobas. me axlac vmonawileob aqciebSi, sityviT gamovdivar, sakuTar pozicias vafiqsireb socialur qselSi, mediasa Tu mitingebze, magram ver vxedav sakuTar Tavs romelime partiaSi. simarTle giTxraT, qarTuli politikuri speqtris donem imdenad daiwia, aRar mainteresebs maTi politikuri disciplinis gaziareba.

– Tqven axseneT, rom duRili SenarCundeba trampis inauguraciamde, romelic dResaa, Tumca isic viciT, rom aSS-is axali lideri xvalve ver moiclis saqarTvelosTvis…
– ki, 20-Si ver moiclis, magram ukve 21-Si SesaZloa, raRac damokidebuleba gaaJReros. . . cxadia, sxvis miniSnebebze sakuTari politikis ageba Cveni saxelmwifos sisusteze miuTiTebs, magram viyoT realuri politikis mimdevrebi, pragmatulebi da vaRiaroT, rom Cven ki ara, Cvenze ufro didi saxelmwifoebi igive mdgomareobaSi arian. trampis miniSnebebi sabolood bevr rames gadawyvets rogorc xelisuflebisTvis, aseve, opoziciisTvis, aRarafris molodini ar dagvrCeba. an gaZlierdeba baidenis administraciis mier gamoxatuli pozicia, rac mTavrobas Caagdebs cud dReSi, an aSS-is axali prezidenti gaakeTebs iseT reveransebs, rac gaamarTlebs amJamindeli xelisuflebis qmedebebs, anu erT-or kviraSi yvelaferi gairkveva. . . jerjerobiT, cudad meniSna, rom saqarTvelos oficiozi ar aris miwveuli inauguraciaze. . .